Francesco Ambrogetti · Principal Adviser of Innovative and Alternative Finance for Children, UNICEF | A champion of innovation in funding and paradigm-shifting change, Francesco is a pioneer of new funding architectures that affect changes bigger than philanthropy itself can address.

Today, we’re catching up with Francesco Ambrogetti, Principal Adviser of Innovative and Alternative Finance for Children at UNICEF. A champion of innovation in funding and paradigm-shifting change, Francesco has pioneered new funding architectures like bank bonds to support fundraising, parametric insurance to cover children, the first outcome finance structure for polio, and socially-conscious ETFs.

The last time we talked to Francesco, we barely scratched the surface of the type of alternative funding that makes enormous change possible, fast. This time, though… get ready to get innovative.

Tune in to hear how social proof can affect fundraising, the effect of a mindset shift that takes donations from an afterthought to the forefront, and practical advice for championing alternative funding in an industry that’s slow to adopt innovation.

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So, that one, it just says somebody that knows, intimately, their audience. And that means sometimes you're annoying somebody else, which is what the charity don't do. So we try to go to everyone and the dog and just say, my cause is good for you. Instead of just saying, oh, he's my target audience, right? So, for instance, for UNICEF, it's clearly very much I mean, it's parents that is an identity that counts, because we're talking about children, right? So, why do I need to convince necessarily, right, the Gen Z and Gen U.

Hello and welcome to this episode of Nonstop Nonprofit!

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Justin Wheeler Francesco, so great to have you back on on the podcast. How have you been doing?

Francesco Ambrogetti Nice to see you, Justin. Very good. Pretty busy, but, very happy to, you know, do this annual if you want us an annual catch up. Yeah.

Justin Wheeler Yeah, exactly. It's the best way to catch up on all the latest trends and what's happening in the world of creative financing for the world's biggest problems. And so I'm excited to to actually dig into that in a few minutes. But before we do that, for those listening, if you could just give a quick background on who you are and the work that you and UNICEF are doing for children around the world.

Francesco Ambrogetti Yes. I'm, Italian of origin. Lived outside my country for the last 25-30 years around the world. I work for a number of charities, most recently for UNICEF, in various role, mostly in fundraising and marketing. So I started to do really the very basic sew myself doing, setting up the face to face operation, the telemarketing, the dark, and starting the golden day of the Daily Mail. So many of you are still using it. And then I move progressively more into the intersection with, Innovative Finance. Where I am now and to support the work of UNICEF. That is very broad, as you can imagine. And particularly today, particularly, how can I say challenged by a number of things that we all facing. So we facing, unfortunately, from the Ukraine to Gaza, just to name a few, because we don't forget Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, these are also conflict ongoing that also take all the energy and resources to just respond to emergencies. In the meantime, there are children in all the rest of the world that's also need support and help. And so the challenge is, how are you going to just, you know, respond to these massive crises that are permanent in nature and at the same time, helping children to go to school in Ecuador or to just the girls to be protected from violence in Laos. So that's a challenge programmatically, but also financially, as you can imagine, in that environment there's, you know, high inflation and, you know, increasing prices, etc., etc.. So it's exciting, but it's also. Worrying and concerning.

Justin Wheeler Yeah. I mean, it's it's, you know, for a lot of, a lot of nonprofit leaders, a lot of their missions are singular, focused. Right. And I guess you could kind of say that about UNICEF in, in regards to very focused on children. But you're in spread across the world and it's like you attempt to solve one problem, another one pops up. How is it, how is it like working in that sort of environment? How do you and how do you.

Francesco Ambrogetti How do you do this? It is I mean, it's a large organization is one of the largest in the world. We are the biggest, supplier of certain commodities like vaccine. So we have billions of dollars of vaccines and other lifesaving things that we procure and distribute around the world. So it is, in a sense, comforting if you want, Justin, because it's such a large presence on the ground, with amazing people. I'm, I can I cannot just even tell you how much I mean o of colleagues in actually are right now in case are we not risking their lives, for instance. And so that's kind of comforting, right? That's what makes everything relevant. At the same time, it is very much a challenge because, you know, supporting all that from where I'm standing. So getting more money and today is it's complicated, right. Because, you know, rightly so. The donors want to see more and more empire, want to see more and more earmarks if you want. Right. So in the same house. So individual donors just aren't going to go to this specific thing, but then this restrained organization because as I said, you know, this is doesn't help us to just help every child. That is our mission. So I got an office, I don't know, in a to said, you know, like, Chile or which doesn't have enough money because all the money are rightly so in Ukraine or in Gaza. So that's the challenge you're facing right now. Can you just make sure that you raise those type of money and resources? There are at the scale, but at the same time, with the quality, the help, you know, UNICEF to do their work, around the world and not just in a few countries of the century.

Justin Wheeler Absolutely. I was sitting down with a founder and CEO of a nonprofit called New Story, recently, and the conversation reminded me of, what you're up to at UNICEF in regard regards to innovative financing and the organization. You know, it's it's about a 40 was a $40 million organization. And they're trying to solve the housing crisis around the world, really. And they took a step back and and started calculating, well, what's the cost to solve this problem. And it was like ten times larger than the annual philanthropic dollars donated to charity. And they're like, this is bigger than philanthropy, right? Like we're not going to solve the world's problems with with just charitable contributions. And so I, you know, that that reminded me of the conversations we've had in the past. And I'd love to hear over the last, since we last met, I think it was back in 2022. What you've been up to on the innovative financing side to fund your mission and, and how other nonprofits potentially could, you know, learn from, that innovation, as it relates to financing, for the organization's mission at.

Francesco Ambrogetti Tech just in in fact, that's was keep me, in a sense, still smiling or exciting when I get off the bed. Right. And so, as I said, I'm, through and through direct marketeers and fundraisers. So as I say that, I just don't deny where I'm coming from and why this is relevant. So we still need to raise a hell of a lot of money, right? For our courses. But as you said, you know. What is the limit? Because you say, you know, and then I go back to what Dan Pallotta thinks, how many organizations you know, that have crossed the $100 million a year and how many companies you have, at the same time, across that bar? So compare the two and then you ask yourself, is the Tesla mission, or is the Apple mission more important than the new mission? Because it is not comparison, right. So the point is, there's not enough money we can raise to just really be able to fulfill our mission with the just fundraising. Is like you try to accelerate Tesla production with the sales. It's never gonna happen, right? There's no, it doesn't work, right. So you need capital. You need capital. Everything needs capital in this world. Even if you are not capitalistic, you need capital. Martin Luther King needs capital, right? Gandhi, needs capital. So the point is, our world is still working in this type of mentality that the money we raise, net of expenses we spend for program, right. And there's never enough money. So the conversation we had because we were just launched this bond that, you know, in fact, it's the first ever that finance fundraising in emerging markets. So with the proceeds of the bonds, we are supporting face to face telemarketing, acquisition of individual donor in Thailand, Indonesia, Brazil, etc. and one of the main feature of this bond in that the investor accept that if we don't raise them money and lose the principal, if we do raise, they also going to get the principal back and the interest. So it's an amazing. Feature. If you think about it because it means if fundraising is indeed a productive operation, predictable, right and sustainable. Why the market shouldn't finance right? And also with the double feature that I'm helping. I just put a name right, Amnesty International Charity Award or whatever you want to call it. Hence, I get my money back, right? And I just double my impact because my money will triple. And so it's an amazing feature. So I'm many since we talk and I spoke with, you know, CEOs of you know mid large size organization right in us. Yeah. Which are exactly at the crossroad. Just say man we are just reaching the 100 million. We kind of scale behind. We don't have enough you know, because you know with the attrition thing you don't have enough money to invest. And I just see that's that's way that's where you have to go to the market yet to get capital. And I still and everybody buy into the idea. But nobody has taken next steps. So I just think this is a fundamental is the challenge of the sector. And doesn't mean you don't have to do fundraising. You still have to raise a hell of the money. Like you still have to sell a lot of Tesla, right. And sell. Yeah. Point is you need capital to grow. And so that's that's that my first challenge where I'm coming here and you know in in our bond you know, we we in fact is a 50 million back in the year three, we already on a three 5400 million revenue because because it's it's our program works. It's your program is acquisition a regular donor with the attrition. That's that's how it is. It's a scalable. Right. That's the that's, where I'm coming from and are still having this conversation with leaders and CFOs that, you know, understand and but nobody has the courage to to make the next step. There is a gap in the market. That's true adjusting because for the financial sector this is not too lucrative. There are no money to be making here. Right. So why JP Morgan of this world of Goldman Sachs. You put something on that. And the charitable let's see this as a risk is so there is a culture shift a market shift that needs to be done. This. I'm very excited. The fact that I proven that this can be done. And there is plenty, plenty of investors out there they would love to just say I kind of support Mcos and with with such an amazing things, which yet, of course I donate, but also I can use my part of my portfolio. Support your course. That would be amazing. Yeah.

Justin Wheeler So is the has the pushback for lack of better words been just around the return profile is it's just they're trying to compare apples to oranges. To like what? Where you know, what they could be making in high growth stock market.

Francesco Ambrogetti There are a number of resistance. If, you know, the sector is how conservative is. If I can say that to me, no, no, not everyone. No, no offense to anyone, but it is a very conservative sector, right is the way we do things. So the pushback is from different angles. One is the is the risk element right. Oh my God. What's going to happen if we know grapple to be paid and hour blah blah blah? Ryan. And the question is okay, but if you have a investor that accept that risk so you lose nothing. So you only risk is to raise that money. And the another another way is to just say, oh, are we going to justify to the IRS and our donor that we have an influx? So I don't know, $50 million over the summer, and then we need to pay back in five years. We just we coming line accounting type of question which is I don't think is particularly relevant. Yeah. And then you know oh so the question is just like the fact that is most a mindset, I have to say. And by the way, so there are tools in the market that exist in all you can do direct public offering houses and as a, as a not for profit power wants a tree. You can do a bond. So I think the pushback is very much on we do these things on our life. Why we need to change this is risky. Oh my God. You know and and so on and so forth. You know.

Justin Wheeler Yeah, I think, you know, I think too, like there's this like mindset shift that needs to happen, you know, because for so long the nonprofit market has been looked at as almost like an afterthought. Right. Oh, I'll give my, my, like 10% after earnings or I'll give whatever's left after I've lived my life. And so it almost feels kind of like, oh, we're giving to an industry that's not like really like a business industry or it's, you know, it's not real. It's just like a bunch of, like people trying to do good in the world. But I think the mindset shift needs to say no, this is a market, and it's in a market that's actually okay to drive a return in, because the impact of that return is much more significant, you know, to not just the individual receiving the turn, but the individuals on the ground being being helped. So we just need this mindset shift that it's okay to make money in the nonprofit market. And that's true of like, individuals working at nonprofits. That's true of investors wanting to invest in whether that's social impact causes and bonds, whatever it might be. I think that's the mindset shift we need, so that we can open up the doors and actually solve these big, enormous challenges.

Francesco Ambrogetti Yeah, and if you think it's like having two pockets, right. One pocket, you have the spare change, which is normally exactly like how we look at the charitable. Okay, what is the spare change I can donate, right. And the other pocket is much bigger. It's, even in our life, you mentioned your mortgages, right? Your stocks and shares, your, you know, you're saving your pension. This part is much larger, right? And all of us and also our donors, this is there. So they never think that part can be aligned for supporting your cause, right. You always ask for the other pocket, the spare change. It changes completely the ball game. And I have to say Justin, what is really, really interesting for me, it changed the game for the foundations, too and the family office, and I live and work in the retail. Now I can go and just say, okay, I still need your gift, right? I still need it.

Justin Wheeler Yeah.

Francesco Ambrogetti And okay. But now you can also use your assets. Think about that. So these are much more money. So there is a limit to how much gift the, you know, a foundation, a family office a guy can do. But you know, that's a hundreds of million that you always invest in various things. Now I'll give you the chance to do part of this to the coast. I mean, we open up a completely, you know, this trillion dollars capital markets that we have access. Because of that, you open up a new game, you know. So just to show an example of something I'm excited I did in the meantime, in the last three years, you know, one of the biggest thing we have is the polio, right? Polio is nearly eliminated from it's one of the second disease we can eliminate from the fact face the world. We had the vaccine right is endemic in two countries Afghanistan and Pakistan. But we can get there. So we need a lot of money to do that, right? We can raise that money, you know, $8 billion. Just good luck along with that to take. Or we can just have something else. So what we did is just having, $500 million frontload via the European Investment Bank. So we get the money right away to finish the war. And then based on the certain KPIs that we choose, the number of cases of polio, the number of doses of vaccine, if we reach them, the European Commission guarantee will reimburse the bank. If we don't reach, then the Gates Foundation will pay back. So we have two donors. This sort of guarantee. But result is we get money right away in large scam European investment will never donate the money, right? It's a bank. It's a bank. Right. So therefore yes. Yeah. But thanks to this mechanism we now have putting a note. How long would I take it to raise this money. If we have we're going to raise that. So you see that's the type of thinking that is. And in the meantime we need still to raise money. But you understand that that that's completely different mechanics. Now for the cake. What is in for the Gates Foundation should not have given the money right away. Yes, but they they've leveraged double. So their money levels double money from another. So they get more money into the course. That is polio elimination.

Justin Wheeler Absolutely. So essentially I mean it has like all of the features of like a collateralized loan, a guaranteed loan, making it risk free for the bank, but backed by, you know, very credible sources. And so it allows it allows you to do the work, allows you to deliver impact immediately, save lives. And the bank still to be able to make its.

Francesco Ambrogetti Direct payments based on KPIs. So they are data, right? So when you measure that is like did you reduce the number of of cases, have you deliver the number of doses. So that's, that's some interesting and, and one cool thing that has been applied to this, has been the Rhino bond. So substantially similar tank bond in the market. The proceeds go to the conservation in southern Africa, but then the interest is linked to the, number of white rhino that born or died. So therefore, the investor just, like, take a gamble in a sense to say, okay, I will receive more interest than Moreno or the I just completely lose that. And that's also very cool, right. Same type of thing. So but again, it's a different type of mentality, which is, much more money in a different way and putting the risk into this element. Exactly. So what will happen to us if we not going to meet this, you know, nothing.

Justin Wheeler So that actually begs the next question. You know, we talked about this like external audience, the market's donors. But there's this internal audience, the organization, the board, the executives. How has that journey been for you navigating that at a rather large organization like UNICEF, getting the team on board with alternative financing, creative and innovative financing options that are just very different than, you know, again, normal philanthropic giving and fundraising is very important. But these concepts are newer, to and we all know that, the nonprofits, as you said, are can be conservative and can be slow to adopt innovation and change. So how is that journey been for you? Working inside a large organization with your team is challenging.

Francesco Ambrogetti Of course. We've been in a much different place, when we were two years ago. More, we have to just spend a lot of time in updating the board. Educating the board. We just did some sort of, innovative finance for dummies so that everybody feel, you know, comfortable. So definitely you need to have some, some champion that is aligned with you. So you need to have the CFO. That's what you need to buy into this vision. And by the way, the CFO, I called the organization like let's say large in in us that they're coming from this wall. So they, they immediately understand, but they need to bind this mentality. It's like they come to our wall and the and tie. So I say, wait a minute, you were in you are doing this stuff. Why why now that you are in let's say UNICEF charity, water or whatever, why this is so different for you? Oh, but this is, you know. Yeah. So definitely you need to a champion in in the CFO in the legal definitely legal is fundamental to that to help you to navigate that and leadership. So that's that's something they thought that. And unless our founder CEO buy to that is very difficult to to drive it through the board. so you need this alignment. You need a lot of time to, you know, because the reaction some time is because people don't understand. So they feel caught off guard. They feel be stupid. So therefore you need to overcome and just say in the end, look, this is sounds very complicated, but it is very simple. You know, if I draw a diagram, you understand it's not that complicated, right?

Justin Wheeler Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a that's a good point. I was actually, talking with the CTO yesterday, who is in his first year or second year in the nonprofit space, is CTO. And prior to that spent, you know, several decades in the for profit market. We're actually talking about what is it like to be a CTO in these two different industries. And he's like, my hope is that I don't lose the mindset that I had when I was working in the for profit space because I was driven to innovate, I was driven to. To, you know, solve the impossible problems that we were trying to solve through our technology. And I want to bring that into the nonprofit space and, you know, to to CFO. The first thing that came to mind is there's a lot of scrutiny around, like, leverage balance sheets in the nonprofit space. Right. And if we had more CFOs understanding that now this is actually can drive significantly more impact. Maybe we can start to change, you know, the conversation internally to somewhat flip the page, no pun intended. I wanna talk a little bit about a couple of your books, hooked on a Feeling and Emotion Raising. What are the answers or the questions that you're trying to answer through these books? And yeah, maybe I should start there.

Francesco Ambrogetti Well, big question. I'm not sure. I think the question that everybody has asking ourselves for every day and try to answer in a different way in a sense than, you know, emotion raising is like wine, really, what drive people to really donate in the end, right behind the tactics. Right? What is the inside motivation that click people to just go there? And then I told that neuroscience each some miles millions are way ahead of us in so understanding better that part. And I told that's something again in our sector should take it more seriously. And I think we may do some some element but we don't really apply. So how many organizations really use the neuroscience techniques and discoveries to to just tailor their. So that that part would you know, irrespective of that the question would just like you okay. So from whatever angle we look neuroscience and you have economics that go all to the same point, right. People are not just do this rationally. So the more you spend time in on your logo, on your branding, on your jibberish, on your statistics, nobody cares about that. Nobody will care about who you are, where you found it, the amount nobody cares. So you need to get people some emotional connection and value connection that through stories, through that really visual, and centrally connect to people. So that that was the main message. And I think some progress made that I think too many are still are, you know, very much rational in my opinion, or very much formulaic in my opinion. But that was that was the main thing. And I think, there is still some value in not just like a few weeks ago, you know, that, the Nobel Prize for economics, Daniel Kahneman died. Right. And, I think that was been a good moment to celebrate somebody that. Also change our mindset right a bit, right? But we're the same thing. I think things about that system one system. Do you know if you rely too much on, on the, on the, on one system that you think is what make people decide you wrong now to do is a different story because of course there is a technique, there is a science and an art in that. Right in the motions. Right is not just like the object is not making people cry. You don't get people to give because you make people cry or we make people upset, right? You need to get that element to get the attention and the click. But then of course data needs to match their value. So then for that for you, we can talk about how simplify the process into the name. But you have to start before. Right. What make people really feeling something right instead of talking up. So that was been the first book. And then the second book has is been more about, okay, all this is great. But we keep going into that are recurrent cycling. People get really into you because of the guys, because of the thing, and then you never see them again. Why? Because I come to you. So you convinced me with your thing. So much connected, so happy. Now I donated and I got nothing from you. I get another form from you or I get another newsletter from you. So that disconnected we all seen. And they had this example about charity and about the Kony 2014 is what I was it, right. The campaign in 2012, the organization after the peak close heist bucket challenge, same thing. Huge peak enabled. So we unable to sustain that thing and the retention as you know, that really. Right. Shows that. So what is this is the fact that the experience we do is that poor, is that poor. So we may be good that create campaign across social media to engage people at the first place and make into the night. But we terrible in delivering a terrible experience after that. Right. So that what you're saying, that's where you need to start. So, you know, like like, you know, Steve Jobs says, I don't go to the engineer to tell me another cool technique that I can just launch in a market. Right. I have to go back to the customer and say, wow, can improve your experience. I have to start. And then I go back to the engineer. Same thing here. Instead of thinking a new segment, a new I generated, and whatever. The basic is go back to your donors and understand how you can improve that experience. Right. That's messed out. Yep. Again. I think there, there is a general agreement, but how this translates into practical and strategical, investment in mind. And it's questionable, right?

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Justin Wheeler You know, I, I think this statement might get me in trouble with the nonprofit world, which I hope it doesn't. But, you know, I think, on that point of going back to the donor, understanding their experience, you know, I think an underlying problem. And I'm going to say it and then I'm going to I'm going to expand on what I mean by it, is that there's a lot of entitlement in nonprofit fundraising. And what I mean by that is, well, I'm doing a good thing. I'm helping children, I'm feeding the poor, I'm doing whatever my mission is. So you should just, you know, give a shit and give your money. Because I'm doing something very noble and you're making a lot of money. And, you know, while I don't disagree with sort of the nobleness of working in the nonprofit space, I think many people have to sacrifice, you know, to, to work in this industry. I think that if we go back, like you said, and really develop these journeys for these individuals, these donors, and we actually start solving this massive retention problem we see in the nonprofit industry, we actually see exponential growth, and we will be able to fund more work. And so it's, you know, the whole point that I'm trying to say here is, is totally agree that it's not about I don't or shouldn't just come back and give because you're doing a good thing. They need to believe that their continual gift will continue to do a good thing. And the only way to make that happen is to have that relationship and to help the donor through that journey and that experience. Otherwise, they're gonna find another great cause that hits, you know, that gives them an endorphin burst and move their money to the next cause. Next. Next door.

Francesco Ambrogetti Yeah. And if it's all transactions and. Yeah. And his mentality, you need to get your second gift as soon as possible. This will draw your attention. So it's all about driven by the ask and the ask. And you have to ask multiple time. And you got all this data to prove, I think it just it just very, very shortsighted. Again, you know, I'm, I'm just the, the change and just go. I just need to go back and understand. What do you think about how you judge how you value spending. That which I understand is less fancy than I and I understand is less fancy than another segmentation, whatever. That's where it all start. Because if you don't have friends, are you going to sell? How many, really, nonprofits can say, generally, that they know what the donor experience, right. They can just they can give data back, but they don't they don't really expand. So I still think this is a major, major, major shift. And as you said, is this is then going to drive to more money? Yes, it does in the in the long term, right. But you have to make this jam. So one of the, one of the things that UNICEF has done in, across Latin American markets, is to start really, regularly to, ask people about their dissatisfaction on the on their experience that they just completed and in their commitment to the organization. It sounds simple, but if you do start to regularly, you get massive data and through the massive data so you can see that those there are higher committed and higher satisfied, they have a much larger lifetime value. So these if you stop bothering, just do a simple thing like that, you just put in these people in different buckets. So this is where you can check. Then there are people, that are committed. So they believe in you but they are unsatisfied. What's happening there. So this is, then this is a different bucket. Look at it. What we did wrong is something we failed. There is something we can do. Okay. But but you see that method change your approach and not need to just send a second appeal. Second gift, Second ask. That, you just need to understand them better. And this is based on experience and is based on the, commitment to your organization.

Justin Wheeler Yeah. No, absolutely. Another concept I wanted to hit on from hooked, kind of feeling, was a concept that I that laid out personally for me, but had nothing to do, do with charity. But I think it's very relevant to the concept in your book and to fundraising in general. I am a lifelong. I have been a lifelong Nike fan. I love Nike, right? And I love it because, I mean, they have yes, they have cool products and have great shoes, but you know, their messaging isn't about how awesome their shoes are, right? Their messaging is you can be an athlete, right? You can be an Olympian. You can be so-and-so. Right? And so they get you talking about like the, you know, the neurons in your brain triggering off saying, I can be an athlete, I can up my game, whatever it might be. Recently I've gotten into pickleball and Nike, you know, hasn't done a lot of marketing in the pickleball arena. Right? And so I've just been wearing like the most comfortable court shoes, tennis shoes and that Nike has, has, has produced. And then along comes Skechers, a brand that I thought was dead. And, you know, I was like, I can't stand that. They're so ugly. There's nothing cool this company has ever produced. But they, they basically latched on to, like, one of the most popular and famous pickleball players today and built up a whole brand around him, and then went further into just talking about how it's going to up your game and so forth. So I wouldn't trade them on. I was like, Holy shit, these things are amazing, right? So I switched to to Skechers. Not because not because like the marketing was, you know, telling me that the shoe was better, but it's because I saw social proof. I saw that actually this brand was being adopted in an arena that I cared about. And so I was like, maybe I should consider this. And I think, you know, there is a very similar concept here when it comes to fundraising. And the science behind fundraising is when we see social proof, you know, when we see our peers engaging in important causes. That's a huge, factor in what might lead me to make a contribution and so forth. And so that was a thought that came into mind. And as I was trying to relate back to, some of the concepts in, in hooked on a feeling that I think a lot of nonprofits, you know, could, could obviously borrow in, in the way that they interact and connect with, with their donors. No.

Francesco Ambrogetti On 2%. And, you know, Nike it's it's really done and built the essence exactly what you say, not on the sneakers but on the on the identity. And, you know, that's That campaign went crazy, with Kaepernick, right. Which, you know, and if you're on a surface, you say lots of people really hated it. They start burning the shoes, you know. And then you analyze, you know, who you react to that badly? Definitely not the target audience, right? Oh, Nike, these are not the teenagers that are, they actually love it! And they actually become, they're spending even more,if you look at the data. So, that one it just say somebody that knows intimately their audience. And that means sometimes you're annoying somebody else, which is what the charity don't do. So we try to go to everyone and the dog and just say, my cause is good for you. Instead of just saying, oh, he's my target audience, right. So, for instance, for UNICEF, it's clearly very much I mean, it's parents that is an identity that counts, because we're talking about children, right? So, why do I need to convince necessarily, right, the Gen Z and Gen U. It's possible I have some segment that will be. But definitely, you know, my identity is very much closer to the parents, right. Because I have a child, right. And that's reason I give more. So get more parents to, like you said in the social proof is a helping a lot to get other parents into the game, right? And know and so I think, I think this is where we also a big failure. So we try to convince everyone and believe that, you know, I just read 100 and just see what it takes to the, to the world. Right. And this is, this is a good use of money and good marketing. Right. And just in that, to be honest, I mean, 99% of the nonprofit just acting this way, saying for face to face, I annoying 200 people on the streets and I get two good results, but you have another 100 people. And then what will be the results of that? You know, because that's another part the experience is like kind of money is never experience is made of the beginning, the peak and the end. The hand will stick to the memory and will drive you behaviors. So when you are annoyed, somebody's definitely not going to come back. You will influence other people. So that element also we no measure if we don't consider right. So the annoyance that we create is like irrelevant because I had 1% response. Oh, I know because I have two donors on the street. Well, wait a minute. You know, because you discharge all the rest that you created because you are unable to just be more exactly close to your people that believe in you, more relevant, etc.. So that's another element that really it's it's really shortsighted. And, you know, we can say whatever we want, but, you know, the social media is flooded by the same type of appeal, meaning everybody trying to just sell the same to everyone.

Justin Wheeler Yeah, well, I know that you're doing important things. You're in a suit, meeting with important people. So I don't want to take too much more of your time here. But one last question for you before we let you go.

Francesco Ambrogetti But one other thing I wanted to mention, because maybe you know your time, we're going to talk about it, but it's something I'm excited about. It is it's well, a few things I'm excited about, you know, while I'm here, one of the things here is we we try to find a new way to deal with that part in particular certain country, right? Certain country pay so much in debt and interest that there's no money left for children in terms of education and so on. And this. Everybody just AOL. So we need to crack it down, right? Normally this is something that is done at the governmental level, right? You have to convince the government to forgive the debt, you know, all the all that. But we think I think that there is a solution in which we can bring the market. So investors and the donors together to find a solution that will reduce the debt and the interest. That part will be then invested conditionally into the children. And so that's something I'm excited because I think there are problems of this world that for too long, we think is for government to resolve or for big institutions, while markets and donors together can find solution to deal with it. And for me, this is where the donors of today would be more excited than have another appeal to just say, give it to this, give it to that. Now, can we use your assets and resources to make sure that therefore we get reduced debt and this one will make more good? That's for me is exciting. Sorry if I just jumped in the air. Just.

Justin Wheeler No, no, it's good. And just just so that our listeners have the context, can can you share where you're at? I mean, when you when you said, I'm here.

Francesco Ambrogetti With you, I mean, to see there's there has a meeting of the, the world Bank and the IMF and, and I'm here to make to meeting with donors. So I want and it was in the middle for nations and, and others to deal with this issue. And the other issues I'm dealing is and very excited is are we can use insurance or parametric insurance and carbon to respond to disasters. So when a typhoons and higher quake a flooding instead of we have to go and raise the money after disasters, I can activate the money. So in 24 hours these money are where they are needed and who is going to pay for the premium? The donors. Now, why the premium? Pay for the donors to pay for the premium because you're going to get much better battery deal. So instead of giving the money after disaster, you give me 100 million covers that I can activate. So and you get the money right away. So again, this is another interesting I'm here to discuss. Yeah, I'm very excited about it.

Justin Wheeler Very cool. Thank you for thank you for sharing that. And I'm glad you jumped in. It's actually a good segway to the last question. Actually. It sets that question up nicely here. And it's for those listening who are trying to think how to be more innovative in financing their nonprofit and funding their mission. Where should they start any any practical advice that you can share in terms of where to start?

Francesco Ambrogetti That's that's a hard question. I really don't know, because I think that, you know, I think that this is, relative. I mean, the financial part is nothing new. Justin, let's be clear here is something that has been there forever. Bond or insurance has been there. Nothing new is the use you do for your house, right? Is is the way you're going to use and interact. So there's nothing new in that specific technically. Yeah. Some basic financial. But I would just say an asset to also internally to people just say where you started to say what is your big issue you want to solve, right? What is it from your mission, programmatic thing that you cannot solve with the current donations? Right. So start there and then say, okay, there is another way I could solve that. I need I need money upfront. I need the different mechanisms, I need different. That's where you can start thinking innovative finance or alternative finance, right? Because if you can solve with that, with more donation, I just say raise more money. There's no that's not a great point. But if you say any faster or any different or I cannot just do with just the national law, that's a good place to start. And the way I look at it is also for me, this area is capital campaign 3.04.0, what used to be a capital campaign. If you think about right now, this is shifting to a financial. So instead of taking like five years to go to the capital here, you're going to go with a different. But the idea is the same.

Justin Wheeler Yes. That makes total sense. I think that's I think that's that's actually a really great prompt. If you're wondering whether or not non philanthropic gifts is for your mission, start with how big is the problem? How much funding do we need? If we can't solve it with philanthropic markets what other markets can can we solve this problem in and go from there. And that might lead to if the answer is we need to go to other markets that it's going to lead to, we need some new talent on the team that has this expertise in those markets. And so I think that was incredibly insightful.

Francesco Ambrogetti So thank you for one thing, Justin. Many organizations in their boards, board members are people that in their life they do exactly that with personally or professionally. So they do exactly that. So it's time for them to just say, help us to solve this issue with your capacity. Right. So due to investing in all the time we wanted and shouldn't apply to us. Need to solve urgent issues?

Justin Wheeler Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. It's it's always such a pleasure. To catch up, I could I could spend another hour just talking with you about, the innovation that you're at the forefront of and the incredible work that you and UNICEF is doing. So thank you for giving us, 45 minutes of your time today to share with us and our listeners. We really appreciate it awfully.

Francesco Ambrogetti It's not going to be, every year. But I might have shorter maybe to share some of these things up to do that as a pleasure.

Justin Wheeler You just we'll need to get an update. We'll have to check in midway and, and, see how things are going. Good luck. Good luck. Out and out.

Francesco Ambrogetti It's so much been a pleasure. Thank you, thank you.

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